what if: QuiGon-as-seperatist-leader(?)

[Cobalt60]

(IMO) the prequel trilogy have been a "better" story if the characters of Qui-gon and dooku were the same guy.

( ie: Liam Neson was signed to a 3 movie-deal. but it seems George changed his mind in mid-production and killed off the character for dramatic purpose. so Liam Neeson never made it into AOTC)

I think , Liam's character was probably supposed to survive the battle with Maul and go on to join the dark side as the Seperatist Leader in EP2.

that would have made a better story.

--> imagine Qui-gon taunting Obi-wan, trapped in the ray-shields on Geonosis in ATOC (with all the same dialog):
"it will be difficult to secure your release" (etc)

--> imagine Qui-gon in the AOTC saber-duel, saying all the same lines to Yoda, to anakin, etc.. and even cutting off anakin's arm.

--> imagine that anakin had to kill Qui-gon (not dooku) in order to "save" palpatine in the beginning of ROTS..
"do it! do it NOW!" .. and anakin faced with the reality of killing his old master

((I mean : who the heck is "Dooku", anyways? LOL. as a member of the audience, coming from phantom menace, that name has no meaning(heh). maybe if they had established the character of "dooku" as a good guy in EP1, then, as audience, we'd KNOW that he was once a great jedi who had left the order for his own reasons, etc..
instead we have to take mace's word for it in Ep2 when he tries to vouch for dooku's character))

((and : when anakin finaly kills dooku in ROTS, that scene would have a LOT more meaning if dooku were actually anakin's old master Qui-gon))

the problem is, George changes his mind like the weather.

-->you'd think that after 30 years he'd have the story written and ready to go.
but he was constantly rewriting the story as he went along; even AFTER the 'post-production' process.

---> imagine being Liam Neeson , signing a contract to act in THREE Star Wars movies ,
and then having your character killed by a Ham Sandwich that George ate for lunch one day while making episode1. (heh)


-===============-

back to dooku in Episode II,

in AOTC he tells Obiwan "join me and together we will destroy the sith!"
---> if this were coming from Qui-gon I'd have believed it.

if it were Quigon, we would never really know what side the seperatist leader was on.

even after Anakin killed him in ROTS.
(we would wonder, maybe Palpatine LET anakin kill the seperatist leader..
because he knew "qui-gon" was really a "good guy" who wanted to destroy the sith) (?)*

*this question doesn't even come up, because christopher Lee played the seperatist leader like count-freakin'-Dracula. (LOL)

there was never a question in EpII that the seperatist leader was EVIL. he's christopher Lee, FFS (LOL).



if the seperatist leader were played by Liam Neeson (as Qui-Gon) instead, then we would see him as sort of a tragic hero, not just a "classic bad guy".

ie: he went to the dark side, to take it down from within. and he failed.
proving, ultimately, that it can't be done, and creating tension for the hero, Anakin....
(like Red Leader in ANH proves the computer can't hit the exhaust port:
he goes in there before our hero, and establishes the parameters of the struggle)
...this would help to define anakin's story: so the audience knows what anakin is up against in ROTS.

also it would give a reason for the Jedi Immortality.. thing.

ie: BECAUSE Quigon was "riding the fence" so to speak,
he would have to be "neutral" (as far as the light-side/dark-side struggle)
--> this could be explained as a reason why he found the secret to "BALANCE" and ended up as a force-ghost.

by playing both sides of the fence he would represent a "balance" of dark and light

*shrug*

as it stands, the "immortality" thing isn't really explained at all.

we have no idea how Quigon found the secret to immortality.

[Darth Maul]

"as it stands, the "immortality" thing isn't really explained at all.

we have no idea how Quigon found the secret to immortality."

-I agree that pissed me off like nothing else. Oh well some mysteries are better ledt unsolved.

~Lord Maul~

[Lord Sidious II]

You know i have toyed with this idea but i just dont think itd work well, I think the main story here in the PT is the Fall of Skywalker, if you put Qui-Gon in then it becomes the Tragedy of Qui-Gon.

But i do agree that Dooku should have been introduced in Episode 1 as a good guy, maybe a bit rebellious, then In episode 2 when it is revealed the mysterious Darth Tyranus is actually Dooku it would be more of an impact

[Meridian Xor]

I hadn't heard that Nissen was signed to do three films. The version in the press, over here, was that Nissen wanted to do Star Wars, but that HE insisted he only be in one film.

Anyway, I take a different tack...I think it would have been better if the Seperatists were not in league with Palpatine. If they were what Dooku (what a corny name) first presents them as...folks who realized that the Chancellor was bad. It would be more ironic if the Jedi were fighting for the wrong side and that the Seperatists were right all along. The Rebel Alliance could have grown out of the Seperatists.

[Genome4824]

I seriously thing Qui-Gon as a character would have joined Dooku in a quest to defeat the Sith on their own. If Palpatine got to Dooku early he might even be able to convince Qui-Gon to join him.

I believe that George only wanted Qui-Gon to be a major character in the first movie.

BTW Liam Neison DID film a sceen for Episode III where he talks to Yoda on Polis Massa like in the Novel. I really hope it's in a III special edition or on the 1-6 box set next may

[Jedi Nate]

In my personal opinion, if Christopher Lee had never played Count Dooku, I would not have liked Dooku. As for Liam, well, he is a good actor, but he is no Christopher Lee. For one thing, Liam Neeson does not have the charisma to portray Dooku. In my honest opinion, I wouldn't have changed anything about the story.

[Jedi Nate]

Besides, I think the whole thing about Qui-Gon Jinn being Vard Dooku's apprentice and padawan was pretty cool. It added some insight to the story and made the battles between Dooku and Obi-Wan more personal, in my opinion. Not only that, I would imagine that Obi-Wan feared Dooku more knowing that he was the one who trained his late master.

[Jedi Nate]

Personally, although everyone is entitled to an opinion, I find this topic to be an insult to my personal favorite SW character. I like Dooku just the way he is, er, was (before losing his head and hands. lol).

[Buggyvirus1]

I don't think Quigon as dooku would have worked. I like it better this way. He had to die to bring fear and anger in Anakin so that he could fall closer to the dark side, everything happened in order for Anakin to fall, the emperor new this and I think planned it so that he could have full control

[Alena Vader]

Cobalt60 has made some good points. When I imagine these hypothetical conversations between Qui Gon and Obi wan rather than Dooku and Obi wan, it certainly does give a more powerful effect.

However, when I imagine these fabricated scenarios between Qui Gon and Anakin rather than Dooku and Anakin - such as Anakin killing Qui Gon, I'm not as impressed. Yes, it would have made an interesting twist if Anakin had to kill his master but..... doesn't he do that later on to Obi wan anyways? Yes. Anakin/Vader is faced with killing his former master in a New Hope. It's an interesting twist, but has been done before. The Star Wars trilogies are complicated enough. You can only have so many "twists" before the story becomes too hard to follow.

And I do agree with BuggyVirus1 also. I think Qui Gon's death was essential to Anakin's fall. For some reason I wonder.. if Qui Gon had remained alive, would Anakin have fallen to the darkside. Perhaps he would've trusted Qui Gon and doubted him as much as he did Obi wan..

[Jayman87]

I've heard your theory before Cobalt60, and I must say it seems you've put a lot of thought into this. I do not doubt that as he was originally written Qui Gon would have taken the place of Dooku and lead the separatist army. However, as he was rewritten, I have to say that I strongly disagree with the statement that Qui Gon would have broken off and joined the Sith (yes sith, the fact that Dooku calls himself Darth Tyranus and Sidious took him on as apprentice is enough of a reason for me to classify him as Sith instead of Dark Jedi). For one thing, Qui Gon already fell to the dark side once according to the EU (if I recall correctly anyway). Why would he make the same mistake twice? Secondly, in Attack of the Clones you hear him warn Anakin about falling to the dark side when he is slaughtering the Tusken Raiders. Third, Qui Gon seems to have no love for the Sith, and although he is clearly disturbed by their presence (as evidenced in TPM), he certainly wouldn't have joined them. Perhaps he would have broken away from the order (seeing how he was a maverick), but it would have been for his idea of the greater good, not evil. The whole point of the Separatist movement was a power play to set up Sidious to take the Republic under the guise of saving it, Qui Gon would likely have nothing to do with it in his current incarnation. Oh, and one more thing... while Qui Gon does share his former master's rebellious streak, he has neither his arrogance or his hatred of non-humans (Dooku was a speciest, or at least that's how he's fleshed out in the EU, he just suppressed this as a Jedi, hence everyone heaping praises on what a great Jedi Dooku was). I expect this won't change your mind, so we may end up having to agree to disagree, but I just thought I would give my view on the whole Qui Gon debate since I've seen this before. If you'd like to discuss the matter any further I'd be more than happy too.

[RunningWild]

Wow! Excellent points by everyone.

First off, I believed Qui-Gon to be the epitome of purity. He was seemingly the only one that could see the light at the end of the tunnel. He didnt trust the direction of the Jedi council and somehow saw corruption, but remained true to his personal cause of crusading against injustice regardless of the actions of his superiors. The lines would have had a secondary sense to them, would they have been given to Qui-Gon as opposed to Dooku.. but it would have formed far too much of an "Its a small world" scenario to be really feasible if stretched over the general plot of the 3 prequel films. As Emperor Sidious stated - the plot would become too cramped and diluted and the attention / compassion of the audience would also be stretched instead of being focused one essentialy one central character. I also get a kick out of the fear / respect one would have if forced to face off against a veteran duellist who once instructed your own master - what a mind job that would be! I think Obi Wan handled that scenario with extreme confidence and maturity.

As Jedi Nate said.. the prequels gave an excellent insight into a literal generation of Jedi and how their beliefs and attitudes differed. Yoda, who was wise and complately at one with the force trained Dooku, who became sour and disgruntled with the ways of the Republic. These views were somewhat translated onto his pupil - Qui Gon Jinn who retained this cynicism and disdain yet went about the purpose of a Jedi with both humility and honour which inturn could be seen as a main feature brought out in Obi Wan Kenobi in his prime. The unfortunate burden of taking on a padawan at so early an age by Obi Wan however, caused a sort of competition and friction between himself and Anakin Skywalker that I think would not exist between a mentor and student in 'usual' circumstances. This ofcourse, would lead to later problems that a certain shady individual would come to exploit.. which brings me to Alena Vader's response. I too believe that Qui-Gon Jinn would have acted as the lynchpin of stability for Anakin. I couldn't imagine Skywalker having thrown a hissy fit about being more "ahead" of Qui-Gon towards Padme' or questioning their mandate of investigations in regards to what actually occured during AotC.

An interesting What-If scenario, but I doubt it would have been as effective on the big screen.

[Mason Fett]

that would have been a heart crusher seeing Obi Won battle Qui Gon Gin. I guess that would have been very possible to see how things would have turned out.

[Cadeus]

so true....

[Garyn Fett™]

Nah, even as a kid, Qui Gon had a strong connection to the light side. He was very much in touch with it, and it would have taken something incredibly harsh to turn him. Seeing as how he almost turned when his wife was killed, I don't think he could be turned after that.