Obiwan admits fault to Luke

[JADE Light (Skywalker)]

OK...... not the film for some odd reason... but the Book
Return of the Jedi... the book.... if you read it.. you will find something that clears a lot of things up.

Luke is speaking to Obiwans ghost... remember? After Yoda dies.
Luke wants to know many things.. like "why didnt you tell me??"

Obiwan in the film explains little. The movie must go on.
But true fans always have the books

So

Tell me what you think of this Quote.......
Have you heard it before?

What does it clear up for you?

OBIWAN
says.............

"Luke what happened to your father was my fault.
The Galaxy paid a high price for my pride."

_obiwans ghost.

[mannyz]

that line brings questions to me...

pride in what. He was determined to take anakin as his padawaan because of his promise to quigon.

but didn't the jedi council agree to this, it seems to yoda's dismay.

pride wasn't what kept him from finishing anakin off at the end, it was his love to anakin ... as a brother.

i don't see where the pride is.

If it was on not seeing what anakin was to become, his view of the future was as clouded as the rest of the jedi council.

the only place i can see pride being an issue is their (the councils) persistence that they were for the republic, for the people and in this not doing the will of the force.

then in that case it would be due to the pride of all the jedi. No?!?

or am i missing something

well my 2 cents

[JADE Light (Skywalker)]

I wanted to try to answer all those questions you had........

concerning the things you are asking...

This is what makes the story of star wars interesting.
It's the hidden meanings that Lucas gives to his stories.

This was not just any book in the Expanded Universe..
THIS is written in his main story.. it is in
the book of Return of the Jedi.
So I take this line seriously, as if it were said in the film.

Lucas most likely knew it was way too soon for people to really
understand what Obiwan meant by that line .. at that time.
But if you think about it now, after the prequels have been seen..
you'll understand.

"What happened to your father was my fault, the galaxy paid a high price for my pride." obiwans quote to luke after yoda dies.

Ok Go back to ep2.
Remember how Yoda warned Obiwan (and perhaps mace too) about arrogance (another form of pride) and how it was going around the Jedi order... infecting many Jedi.

Obiwan: he is becoming... well.. arrogant

Yoda to Obiwan: Yes Yes. A flaw all to common amoung Jedi. Even the older... more experienced ones.

(obiwan does not think this was said by Yoda to him.. (of course not) because he is sure of himself. A bit too sure. And so he goes back to talking to Mace and Yodas comment remains ...... well kind of unheard... because no one responds to Yoda at all. They just continue talking.

Just like the situation when Anakin wants to go back and save Padme
after she falls out of the ship perhaps to her death or to broken bones... ep2

..... Obiwan refuses..
he demands that Anakin focus on Count dooku and keep following him..
"WE can end this war right now!!"
Obiwan is focusing on the future and preventing Dooku from doing future damage than he has already done...

Qui Gon warned obi not to do this.
To focus on the HERE and now, the present, the living force... but a sort of panic and Fear of letting Dooku escape at that moment, and that assurance/pride in his ability is what drives Obiwan on......

....even with his padawan almost falling apart because of his fears
he has lost Padme.... Obiwan doesnt know Anakin just buried his mother who died in his arms not long ago at all......
he is focused on his own concerns... more than his apprentices concerns... Not a good thing for a teacher... but WAR is distracting all the Jedi.


Anakin doesn't quite respond.. he is always confused by much of what obiwan says. He wants to save the person that got hurt.. that seems the Jedi way. But Obiwan presses him by making him think he is not being Jedi..
and he says "What would Padme do??!?!" then, Anakin gives in... "she would do her duty[/b]."[/u]

But the thing is.. Padme is not a jedi.. her duty is different from their duty. Jedi must think of higher things.. they must focus on the here and now not fear the future or take the entire fate of the galaxy into their own two hands.. or 4 counting the apprentice.
Obiwan is too sure. To much assurance/pride is clouding his judgement..and they almost pay for that with their lives.

What he does not see in Anakin is that this mission that he is taking
the boy on (to Dooku ) has now caused Anakin to feel grief,
some loss in case she has died/broke her neck etc, anger at his mentor for not allowing him to save her, and also the pride of thinking YES just 2 Jedi can end a war that is going to be between two massive groups.. just by killing Dooku.

Anakin is forced to believe his master because well he must believe it.
He must try. "do or do not there is no try" Anakin sets his sights on
Dooku as well.. and they are both filled with pride/assurance as they land.
So as they land it is to be expected that Anakin JUMPS right out to KILL Dooku....
Obiwan says I will handle this and Anakin says no I want him now. Anakin has now learned to use a certain type of pride..
the kind that tells him that he can do something nearly impossible
because he "must".

Later in ep3 we see him use that lesson again.

To try to save padme he does the same thing... takes a serious gamble .. and all because he MUST believe he can do it.. or the loss will be too high..
or so he thinks..... all because he is focusing on the future (death of padme) and not the HERE and NOW...........

EP2 back with Dooku...

Ani thinks that even though he is still just an apprentice to a Jedi he can take on one of the HEAD sith lords.... He believes this because Obiwan said THEY could do it.
He believes it also because he wants to END this and go to Padme.

You know what happens.
Anakin suffers for it. He loses an arm and is unable to fight.
It is almost like a warning about his future.. Ani loses that arm doing something so similar to what he will do later in ep3.....
Obiwan is also unable to beat this sith and he is almost crushed to death.

Yoda felt Anakins frustration through the force if you watch carefully.... on the ship as Anakin says "....she would do her duty" his emotions are so mixed up...
and they are full of sadness, anger and loss.. Yoda senses this and knows this is NOT good.

So.......
......... here enters Yoda......... and he saves the 2 Jedi.

He does not say much to them...
and I wish Lucas had a moment where Yoda spoke to them the way he would later speak to Luke. Just more sternly.. more in command of the Jedi who should Listen to him.

I am just trying to show how I feel Obiwan does use a form of pride much of the time. He does not mean to use evil or corrupted pride..
he does not mean to use it at all... it is just the way that he is.. it is a flaw.. no one is perfect.

The problem is that Qui Gon died before Obiwan was ready.
And Qui Gon was forced to take Anakin as a learner because of the fear in the council... before Obiwan was ready for his trials.

When Qui gon says he is ready (that obiwan is ready)
there is that moment when Obiwan looks at him as if to say "what?"
And Qui Gon looks back at him as if to say,
I am the mentor I decide when I feel I will let you go.
It is quite a surprise and even the council is on edge.
"now is not the time for this" is what they end up saying.

Qui Gon lets go of him, not because he feels it is time but because
he feels he must... otherwise anakin will NOT be trained by the Jedi.

He knows ani is the chosen one, and the council does not see it..
(yes Lucas has said over and over ani is the chosen one), so he sees his abiltity to see it in Anakin as vital. SO... He must be the one to go against the council again and say .. fine. Ill take the boy myself.

Council Rules get in the way and he has to let Obiwan go. He has
to choose to continue to train Obiwan or to begin to train Anakin.
So he does. He knows Obiwan is not totally ready..
remember that he told him not to focus on the future so much but to focus instead on the PRESENT.. what is happening here and now.

He also admitted to Obiwan "You still have Much to learn of the living force my young padawan" so Obi knows..
Qui Gon felt there was more to teach him. But....... things have gotten complicated now.

If Obiwan had listened/learned to that one lesson...
(focusing on the here and now and not on the future) then maybe he would not have made the mistakes that he did Later on that caused so much pain/anger in his apprentice anakin.

It's hard to answer that question with a simple
"well because obiwan did have pride and he used it."
NO that doesnt fit. That will just cause arguments.

Just think about it.
Quigon told Obiwan to focus on the here and now. NOT the future.

Why?

Because focusing on the future causes Fear...
causes people to act irrationally... Anakin focused also on the future.. he learned it from his teacher, and then in EP 3...... when he did see a vision of the future again, just like he did with his mother.... he could not get his mind off of that future..... the fact that he saw in the vision Padme... dying.
He believed she would die in childbirth and because he did EVERYTHING he could (in fear) to STOP it... that is whyshe ended up meeting that fate.

Fear brought the dream to life.

Yoda tried to council Anakin but said the wrong words. ONLY because he did not know that Anakin was talking about the death of his WIFE and CHILD. If Yoda had known that he would not have been
so causal about things. He did not know, anakin felt he could not tell him.
Secrets and Rules and fear... that is what destroyed the Order in the end.
Anyway.........

Anakin has a plan to destroy the sith.
He does kneel but he does not say "I pledge myself to you master"
NOPE......... he says
"I pledge myself to your teachings."

This is overlooked by Sidious because his WEAKNESS is his overconfidence remember? Luke later reveals this.

So he just believes that anakin is now his and it is now time to move on. Yoda even warns him later in their fight....
"Your trust in your new padawan.. misplaced it is"
And this just enrages sidious because he feels he has already
mastered Anakin.

He hasn't.

Anakin tells Padme what is really happening in his heart

((thank god because if he hadn't we would probably have
more to wonder about.))

He tells her right out when he sees how worried she is.
First he has already told her
"I am doing this for you, to save you Padme"
So that is Cut and Dry.

Then he tells her when she begs him to run away from all this with him....
"Don't you see?? We don't have to run anymore...."

Anakin feels that he has conquered the fears within him...
when really he is fooling himself into believing he has because he feels so utterly desperate. then he says "I can DESTROY him Padme.. and we can rule.. together..."

I sense here the kind of assurance and pride that obiwan had many times.

That is why I mentioned the Dooku incident in the begining.

There are other instances .. and you'll probably see them when
you watch the prequels again.

Even in death obiwans force ghost is so very sure of himself.
Luke says "I cant kill my own father!"
and Obiwan says "Then the emperor has already won"
as if ... if Luke does not listen to what Obiwan himself would do..
.. he will fail. ......................That is pride as well. It is softly spoken pride.
The kind that most do not notice they even have...

Well ..........Anakin has already decided what needs to be done.
He must destroy this sith before the galaxy is corrupted by his evil..
before the republic and freedom that Anakin and others fought for
4 years now for in a WAR.. is totally destroyed.

And he tells Padme prior to this that he is learning a WAY TO SAVE HER.
That is all he wants from this sith. He has learned now that his father
figure is a liar. That the entire time he was anakins friend he was the one behind the assasination attempts.. behind the war itself.. all in his lust for the title of emperor and the power of the darkside.

Anakin tells him he wants to kill him once.......
"do you want to kill me anakin?"
"I would CERTAINLY like to..."
"goooooooood I can feel your anger... "

Anakin is reminded he CANNOT kill in anger or rage.. and he doesn't.

Instead he goes to the Jedi.. to Mace.. and tells him.

Mace does not feel what Anakin feels. Mace feels that its FINE to kill the sith.
That is why there is an argument when Anakin comes in.
But that is another topic. "the jedi way" and if mace was right or Wrong.

As far as Obiwans pride and assurance.....

You see it CLEAR as day on mustafar.

If you remember what Anakin plans to do.. you see that obiwan is failing to see that Anakin does not want to kill him, does not want to even fight him.
He tells Obiwan this...
"Dont MAKE ME kill you"
In other words I know you want to kill me,
that is what you came here for, do not draw that saber..
do not engage me in a fight... because I will defend myself.

Anakin believes he is the chosen one because it was told to
him since he was a boy... and right now.. at that moment.. he sees
a chance to bring balance.
It is VERY HARD to not think that now is your chosen moment..
when you see the galaxy falling apart, the republic crumbling, the darkside on both the jedi and sith, and your wife and child at the verge of death.

Then comes Obiwan........
...........And there is just no way that Anakin would not fight Obiwan
off with everything that he had......

Obiwan draws his saber out of the assurance that he "must"...
and says too "i will do what i must" because he was told by Jedi to do it.

Just as before.. when he told Anakin to go and commit TREASON and also LIE to the chancellor and also SPY and report back what he hears to the Jedi........Anakin is SHOCKED remember??

ani "WHY are you asking me to DO this??"

obiwan "because the council has asked me to"

Qui Gon would have said........ WHAT??!
Quigon was not into doing all that the council said... remember?
He thought for himself and he meditated on the here and now
and in the living force. He did not blindly obey..
which sadly that is what obiwan did a few times.
Ecspecially on Mustafar.

Ever wonder what would have happened if Obiwan let Anakin
tell him what Anakin told Padme?? That he wanted to Kill the sith by getting close to him by tricking him and using sidious's "over-confidence" Against him??

Obiwan may have realized that since Anakin wants to DESTROY this sith...
save his wife out of love, save his child, and all this with good intentions....
he still does have light in him...

Ani was not after the sith to worship the darkness/darkside.. he was after him so he could save his wife, child, galaxy and he says that....But in the end we see what happens.

Anakin MUST go through with his plans he has done too many terrible
things and people have suffered and the plan is in action... for him to stop.
He MUST continue no matter what... he thinks it is his time to bring balance
And he thinks he will be able to save padme and his child.

Obiwan thinks Anakin is a huge threat to the galaxy because he thinks
Anakin would never kill his master sidious, that he wants to serve him and that he wants to be a sith.

........ nope.
Ani wants his wife. He wants his child. He wants his galaxy.
He wants to end the conflict!!!!
The two are not able to speak to eachother in a way that actually
COMMUNICATES.

They are to busy fighting to the death.
Look close and you will see tears as anakin fights his teacher.
It is total betrayal to Anakin.... it breaks his confidence that the Jedi ever were or ever can be the LIGHT side. But... his faith stands.

That is UNTIL Obiwan cuts off his legs.. lets him fall into the lava
and lets the lava slowly and painfully begin to burn him.... to a death.

To me it is like watching a Religious person from a thousand years ago
take a woman who is not being HEARD and Burn her to death saying
to her that it is for everyones good that she die by fire.

It is WRONG pure and simple.

Obiwan begins to yell and lecture in tears of his own as Anakin
lays there in TOTAL agony with no legs BURNING slowwwwwly to death........

Situation

If you were burning to death slowly with lava coming up your body and getting into your open wounds from your missing legs.. and you were thinking how one jedi your own brother figure, your own teacher, one you tried so hard to trust and love.... is the one who is doing this to you....... and that your plan to save your WIFE and unborn baby
and even your entire GALAXY is now at an end... so the galaxy will be corrupted YOUR wife will die.. and god knows what will happen to your child...... Wouldn't you look up at that person and
scream "I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (?)

I think anyone would.

And after that... what do you think Vader thinks of Jedi.?

Why does he finish them off once all of that is lost to him.
Once obiwan has done that to him? He has lost all faith in them.
ALL FAITH WHATSOEVER. GONE.

Its sad... but that is what happens in Lucas's story.

Luke comes later and shows his father that the light does exsist....
that there are true Jedi... .. that before the clouding of darkness over the galaxy there must have been Jedi like luke.....
..... By doing one thing. He does not kill his father.
(obiwan told him to do it)
.....He does not.
Also........ he throws his lightsaber down and away...
(practically suicide) after the sith tells him join me and take your
fathers place.

Ani as Vader sees his son and wonders what will happen.
He brought his son closer to the emperor so he could infect his son with ANGER and RAGE so that Luke could DESTROY THE EMPEROR
as Anakin has wanted to for 20 years by then.

(yes Lucas said he knew of the boy .. he waited for the boy to grow up... come.. and kill the Emperor.. he wanted to rule with his son)

Luke found something worth more than his life.

His honor. The very person that he is. And Luke Rejected the FEAR put in him and said what will be will be. Not many would do that.

THAT was the JEDI way.
THAT is what saves his father.

Anakin sees this and takes a chance on being strong enough
to kill the emperor himself instead of relying on Luke to help him.

note: (Lucas said the jedi believe loss of midichlorians is loss of power and he lost two legs to obiwan and an arm to dooku.. this is why he never tries his attempt on sidious life.. according to Lucas. Im so glad explained that. I always wondered.)

It takes him a long time to get to that point...
Luke is screaming "father please!!!!! help me!"
And THEN THAT is when Anakin sees how he will bring Balance back.
He will plant the seed (his son) into the galaxy.. the seed of new Jedi.
Jedi that will learn the WISDOM his son has.
And the sith will DIE....right now. And thats it.

Vader turns and kills the emperor at the cost of his own life...
but he does not fear death...
he follows the example of Luke not fearing death.. and becomes free again. Free of fear.
Free of the darkside because he has Faced it and beat it finally.

Obiwan tells Luke that what happened to his father was his fault......

now do you see why?

He says the galaxy paid a high PRICE for his pride...

now do you see what he means by that?

Such a tiny .. simple... pride... but it was enough to corrupt things.

It was as if the force gave them a warning when they went to see Dooku. Anakin wanted to save padme then too. Obiwan refused it.
Even though Ani's mother just died in his arms.. not that long ago...
... and Anakin is panicking thinking he will lose 2 that he Loves that day.....
Obiwan does not think about anakin.... he does not consider that priority.
He thinks he can end the entire war if he goes to stop Dooku now.

He did not learn to focus on the living force, the here and now, the Present.
He continues to focus on the future, what can be, and that can lead to fear.

Quote: We can end this war now!!!!!!! ~obiwan

Pride gets them both (almost) killed.

Yoda feels them.
And they are spared only because of that.
Because Yoda comes to save them.

Otherwise......
....... obiwans pride and assurance
and focus on the FUTURE and NOT on the Present (as Qui Gon told him) would have killed them.

Obiwan also focuses on the FUTURE that he thinks he sees
and the future that he fears...... by fearing anakin..... by coming to kill him.

He does NOT focus on the HERE and NOW... where he could have found out things from Anakin....... he could have said WHY have you done this Anakin?? Why did you pledge yourself ?? Why is this happening?
what are you doing??.[/u]

He doesn't.

Anakin would have told him... if he felt that he could actually tell him..
the reasons:
...because I plan to DESTROY Sidious the emperor!!
Because I must gain his trust to get close enough to him to slice his throat!! because I will be able to save Padme and my unborn baby if I do this!!
because if I dont do this, the galaxy will Belong to him!!
and most of all...
he would have told him that he is not doing this to become sith......
Obiwan may have seen everything for what it truly was
if Anakin was given that moment to say those things.
But he was not given that Moment.

In ep 3 ..every reason Anakin could have for doing this.... he is given.
And with assurance... and yes pride... he thinks that he can do it.
"you underestimate my power" is the last thing he says before he loses his legs and begins to burn up.
The pride of obiwan is passed down to the student.

Because Anakin MUST believe.. he then does believe he CAN do this..
... he tries to convince himself.

He is NOT thinking clearly!!!!

He is thinking the way people think running out of a burning building......
FEAR, Panic, and some way to get out... that is all he is filled with.
He sees a way out and tries with all his heart to get OUT.

But....
... obiwan stops him. They never get to understand each other.

Even as a force ghost... obiwan says
"what happened to your father was my fault luke, the galaxy paid a high price for my pride."

And yet........... Obiwan still tells luke to kill his father. Thankfully Luke does not listen to fears... and he thinks with love. It seems foolish...
.. but.. it is the Jedi way.

The right path is not always the EASIER one.

Fear corrupts everything.

I hope we all can discuss this more!

~JADE~

[Cadeus]

yeah... I kinda felt sad when ani got himself lava fried and obi just leaves him there to die a horrible slow painful death. Not really very jedi-ish is it?

[Garyn Fett™]

That may be your opinion, Jade, but it isn't everyone's.

[JADE Light (Skywalker)]

Apr 26, 2008 18:57:31 GMT -5 Garyn Fett™ said:

That may be your opinion, Jade, but it isn't everyone's.

Yes that would follow Garyn.. that is why I am asking what people
think of what OBIWAN himself said in the novel of Return of the Jedi

[Garyn Fett™]

Whats said in the novelization of ROTJ is overridden by the Movie. G-level canon is for movies or anything directly linked to lucasarts, the novelizations are C-level canon and (as I said before) overridden by the movie. Thus, if he didn't say it in the movie, it might not be considered canon.

[JADE Light (Skywalker)]

May 16, 2008 15:35:21 GMT -5 Garyn Fett™ said:

Whats said in the novelization of ROTJ is overridden by the Movie. G-level canon is for movies or anything directly linked to lucasarts, the novelizations are C-level canon and (as I said before) overridden by the movie. Thus, if he didn't say it in the movie, it might not be considered canon.

Is that something that LUCAS came up with?

Because as far as I know there is no way in all of this earth
that anyone would be able to put something that Lucas did not agree with into the novels of HIS first 3 stories that make up the 6 part total. Lucas is a PERFECTIONIST.

If you mean that the EU the expanded universe,, is not as cannon as the films I understand.
But if you are saying that the novels of the films Lucas made were not WATCHED by Lucas himself
and that anyone could have Obiwan Kenobi say anything in those 3 books.... a new hope, empire strikes back, and return of the jedi.......
...... no way.
There is no way Lucas would ever in all of forever ever allow that.

Think about it.
Putting that into the movie is not something that anyone in the
audience at that time would understand!

And it would ruin the plot of ep 1 and 2 and 3 as well.
Everyone would be looking for obiwans mistake.. what did he mean
in the ROTJ movie when he told Luke that?
It would ruin so many things for the movie goers and for the story teller.

He has a right to keep secrets and in my opinion he keeps way to many for to long a time. Like when he did not tell people right out that Vader knew of Luke for 20 years. I mean... ok that was just .. wow.. ya could have told us that!!! After ROTJ he could have told us that and we would have
understood Anakin more.. we would see who vader really was in episode 4 and 5 and 6... but no he waited.
And it is his right to do that.
If you really are into something you can find out the answers
but Lucas makes us dig for it. Well I DUG.
I didn't have to dig far though because it was not hidden as badly.
THE book has it.
You can read it now.

There is no way I can agree that Lucas did not watch each single word in those first THREE novels.

The novels that represent his most famous work. His biggest claim to fame.. and his most important story... one he came back to just to show us
Anakins side.

Ill agree with you that shadow of the empire or I jedi are probably not as cannon as something straight out of the movies....
but not about how the NOVELS of the MOVIEs a new hope, empire strikes back and return of the jedi are not cannon/may not be cannon.

no way.

They are definately watched and approved by Lucas. every word.
Unless Lucas is not really the person we all know him to be.. a total and complete perfectionist who is really guarded and protective about star wars and very demanding about details and secrets.

I just cannot agree here.

[Garyn Fett™]

Actually, it was by Leeland Chee, the guy Lucas hired to oversee continuity and canonity.

[JADE Light (Skywalker)]

May 16, 2008 16:24:23 GMT -5 Garyn Fett™ said:

Actually, it was by Leeland Chee, the guy Lucas hired to oversee continuity and canonity.

and again... when it comes to
A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
and Return of the Jedi

I can't agree that Lucas would let someone fly by with any comment or add on that they so chose.. ecspecially with a Key character like obiwan Kenobi.
Just no way.